Forum - View topicImproving animation in America, Britain, and Japan.
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Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
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I thought it would be nice to start a thread that explores the differences between Domestic and British animation and Japanese animation, since they seem to be popular to compare. I don't want this to turn into a Bash American Animation fest, but serious constructive criticism of any countries animation is welcome.
Everyone is aware that American animation does have a certain technical superiority, such as frame rate (although much of that is only the product of the Flash computer program today) but it does have some obvious gems. I saw the beginning of Wizards recently and I thought it was a good film, although I have yet to finish it. I haven't got the funds to rent it at this time. It is creative in it's composition, although obviously influenced by our fairy tales and fantasy novels. It does actually use large amounts of rotoscoping, I understand. While the attention to frame rate used in American animation is admirable, I feel it has overshadowed aspects of entertainment far more important, such as plot, theme and character development. Greater attention to these things would definitely improve American animation. Japanese animation is certainly more likely to explore that. I would say that Japanese animation has gone too far down the route of bad jokes and fan pandering. A greater attention to genuine characterization and character development would be heavily advised, as well as an attention to larger themes than those of school life or personal problems. It seems to me that the younger generation of animators (just like many of the people we all know) are less interested in exploring larger themes and questioning the post 1960's middle class lifestyle. What aspects of American do you think Japan can or should learn from? What aspects of Japanese animation can America learn from? |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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What shows are you watching, exactly? Right now I'm watching Persona 4, Phi Brain, Gundam AGE, Bakuman II, Hunter x Hunter, Chihayafuru and quite a few others and I wouldn't say any of them are "bad jokes' or "fan pandering". "Fan pandering" itself is a pretty vague term I'm not sure what you mean. "Bad jokes" well, humor is all subjective I suppose. Ika Musume is a comedy, would you say those jokes are bad? They seem harmless to me.
Well, I think animation should be seen as a valid medium of entertainment in the west, first and foremost. It's not just for children, or CGI talking animals/princess flicks. It can be for drama, action, romance, and everything under the sun, for all ages and demographics. Japan doesn't really have anything to learn from American animation, since American animation seems to be dying out more and more in favor of live-action sitcoms. Shows like iCarly, Victorious, and Disney Channel's stuff all bring them in more viewers and marketing than their cartoons do (possible exception being Spongebob) And the movies already moved to purely being CGI family flicks. While I doubt it'll die out entirely, it's definitely lower-tier priority now than in the past and not really used much here anymore outside the occasional Spongebob-clone or superhero cartoon; and even TV animation is pretty much going entirely into Flash or CG animation to make it as cheap as possible because they just don't care. Even Cartoon Network wants to go to live-action programming. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3653 |
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While I don't think you're wrong, I think you identified the non-problem. Since Americans have access to an incredibly effective live-action production apparatus that I don't think Japan comes anywhere close to, there's just no reason why "everything under the sun" can't be done in live action. The question is whether we want that stuff to bleed into animation, and I'm not really sure the entertainment landscape will improve all that much with it. I like anime, but I also liked, say, Firefly. Would things be improved if Firefly was animated, as I suspect it would have been had it been Japanese? I don't really think so. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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I'd say it would be.. shows like Firefly suffer from budget problems. I mean, as a result, most of the local and settings of the show reflected more rural wild west settlements than actual space colonies. I think it wasn't until the movie when they actually had a budget somewhat that they had a sci-fi feel and setting to it. Despite being about a crew on a space ship, it was pretty modern with everything else.
Live-action really only works decently if you have the budget, which TV really doesn't, which is why the bulk of them are TV sitcoms or crime dramas. Look at Heroes, the way their powers were used were nothing really flashy (super strength, photographic memory, and other budget-friendly stuff) and the time they tried to be flashy it looked terrible and wonky. Try to do something like Naruto, Dragonball, One Piece, and etc in live-action, especially on a TV budget, is just impossible. Let alone the more stylized concepts like Sailor Moon and magical girl series would just look weird (Pretty Guardian was okay if you treated it as a tokusatsu rather than a magical girl) Animation just works better in general. If you think about it, Firefly is like a less robust and stylized version of Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, or any similar 'crew on a ship having adventures' series, which I would say I enjoyed far more than Firefly and they do the sci-fi thing a lot better. Huh, now that I think about it, Outlaw star did that "nude special girl in a suitcase" thing first... I wonder if that's where Whedon got his idea from. So yes, I suppose it goes back to the US just focusing more towards live-action, especially these days post-Hannah Montana boom when it comes to the cartoon channels. |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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I have seen it suggested that the best adaptation of Dune would be an Anime, precisely because it could be a full miniseries without suffering from budgetary problems.
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Haterater
 Posts: 1727 |
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Animation needs to be given a chance, really. Companies willing to give things a chance and if it fails, try at it another time, don't just give up entirely. I see many here who would love to "make their own anime" and such, and doing that in Japan is a very long shot for 99% of fans. The next best thing is try at their home countries, but the current markets make it nearly impossible to happen, especially if the genre is outside things for certain comedy and children's shows. Need something like Japan's animation Noitamina(?) time slot. Maybe syndication. A whole channel is too tough, but package like maybe a romance or slice of life can go to like Lifetime for its syndication slot. Direct to video is another tough thing to go about. Unless you know someone "in the know" and they the money and connections, it can happen. But then convincing bigwigs who want the best profits can be difficult even after those connections.
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Konopan
Posts: 397 |
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Outlaw Star doesn't need a reboot that badly 
I also think it's pretty questionable to say anime is full of pandering and bad jokes when a great number of American cartoons almost exclusively pander to the white 14-34 stoner demographic and are full of terrible jokes and gags. |
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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Nude human in a cello case dates back from Chekov. Not very hard to imagine. |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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It's okay if you don't like those, but there's a lot of people who do (Love Hina was all the rage back in the day) so it's a pretty viable and valid genre like no other. I don't see the problem since tons of anime that aren't like that getting made so you can pick and choose which ones you like. Not every anime is going to fit your tastes.
The problem with frame-rate is it's just a number. It says nothing of choreography, cinematography, or any other aesthetic attribute of a work. Technically speaking, a Disney movie like Mulan has superior framerate and technical animation than a TV anime like Moribito, but I find Moribito's animation to be better in the fact it's more interesting in its presentation, the cinematography is better, and the fighting scenes are better choreographed. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Honestly, I think the biggest problem with western animation is simply a lack of infrastructure.
When you get down to it there really isn't any great difference between the audiences in the west versus Japan. People talk about how animation is considered to be "for kids" in the west but that hardly the case. Love em or hate em, shows like Family Guy, South Park and the Simpsons have long since shattered the perception that animation is just for kids. That's not to say of course that the average middle aged American is open to watching serious animated shows but rather, neither is the average Japanese person. That's what people forget. It's not a bunch of average, middle aged adults watching your favourite serious, non-family friendly anime show in Japan. Rather, it's the exact same demographic of late teens and young adults that watch the likes of Family Guy, South Park, etc. and, more specifically, also watch the various live action SciFi, Supernatural, Horror or Fantasy material often found in anime. I really don't see any reason why this audience wouldn't potentially watch serious animated shows as well. In fact, may of them do through anime. So...why do we see serious animated shows that aren't for kids produced in Japan? Simple: Infrastructure. If you know anything about business then you know that there's so much more to selling anything than just having an idea and a market for that idea. Japan has an existing animation industry catering to this demographic. The production companies exist. The creative personnel exist. It's a proven business model. The audience is already familiar with the industry. The industry knows how to reach that audience and how to let them know when they put out a new product. With all that already in place it is (relatively speaking) pretty easy to get a show produced in Japan. You just don't have this in America. To try and produce a serious, adult oriented cartoon in America would require you to put all those pieces in place which is a pretty major undertaking and all this for the the sake of a totally untested, totally unproven business model. That's not to say it wouldn't work if you did it but who the heck wants to take that risk? |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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If you talking about American broadcasting, production, and distribution then infrastructure is something we have in abundance. Getting an animated show on during prime time would use the exact same infrastructure a live-action show has. America getting over it's "cartoons are for kids" mentality has nothing to with infrastructure or technically how an American broadcaster would air or create animated shows.
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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One could consider the tendency to always support in house talent to be an example of a structural defect in American animation. In many cases the in house "talent" really isn't there. Japanese animation is more willing to rely on adaptations. No Ghost in the Shell comic, no Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. If American animators were willing to consider a series based on Peach Fuzz that would probably wind up better than Flap Jack or Chowder.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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But we have none of that for serious, adult animation, hence my point. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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The only time animation isn't seen for kids is when it's an immature animated sitcom or comedy, like all those shows.
There's quite a few anime that are watched by people from ages 8 to 50+ and are vastly popular. While Shin-chan and Doraemon can be seen as animated sitcoms (though much better written and executed than their Western counterparts) One Piece, Detective Conan, and others can not, and are of different genres which are unheard of here. There definitely is a completely different audience from here than in Japan. If there weren't, then America would have just as much animated stuff as Japan does. The fact there's actual notes in certain political bills on how much it would affect the anime/manga industry in Japan (which is a huge industry), or why the biggest geek conventions are in Japan that are dedicated entirely to animation/manga, which the US doesn't really have, or how you have districts like Akihabara dedicated to the 'otaku culture' should be evidence enough. Whether the average Joe watches Queens Blade or not is irrelevant, it's still part of their culture. |
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