Forum - View topicREVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica: the Movie Trilogy 10th Anniversary Blu-ray Box Set
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5847 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Yeah, but who’s choice is that ultimately. Madoka’s. Rebellion clearly shows Madoka doing things with her friends, so it doesn’t appear that she is lonely. And this was Homura’s chance to reunite with everyone. A chance that she threw away.
There is no universe where mind wiping, brain washing, or mind flaying is well intentioned. If you remember, Sayaka was forcibly put down. I think the main disconnect people have, is they don’t put themselves in Madoka’s or Sayaka’s shoes. What if this happened to you? What if someone from your past, brain washes your memories and makes you forget wife and children, so that they can relive their glory days of the past with you. Would you personally really be that sanguine about it.
It’s been said, that they were forced to make Rebellion open ended for the possibility of sequels, but after almost nine years, I think it is safe to say, they had no actual plans. |
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Juno016
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"Forced" is a strong word. Plans for the sequel started with the premise that it would allow for more stories afterward. The stories afterward were not planned outright by then, of course, because Rebellion had not been written yet. That said, according to Urobuchi the script for the new movie was done in 2015 or so (around the time the concept trailer released), so we know the drought of core story content has not been due to lack of ideas. Probably just the inability to keep the main staff consistently around while they got swamped with other work after the popularity of Madoka. Urobuchi originally intended to retire from the series due to a huge mass of project invites he was interested in pursuing, but it's possibly they simply waited for him to be less busy and return. |
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Villain-chan
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I never noticed this hour glass u speak of, but I'll try and remember to look for it next time, however if she checked and it was shown only while time itself was stopped then that explains what its for. I'd also like to add I do not consider in most cases anyway, outside material such as a creator's notes to be canon. Unless ofc its shown in the source material itself. Though am speaking not just for the Madoka series but every series out there, anime, games etc. for this but thats just me. If there really is a 30ish month time frame, that may put a kink in Magia Record's story which has largly been very good about no contradictions and i do consider it to be canon to the Madoka series, the game anyway, i don't consider the anime to be canon at all.
and besides that, in Rebellion, when she chose to enter Homura's labyrinth inside her in order to save her dear friend. By doing so and being affected by Homura's powers she forgot who she was and was thus able to interact with those in the labyrinth. Afterwards when set free she was able to be seen again by Homura, I am forgetting if Mami but it wouldn't matter much if she could be seen by her and anyone alive as she'd JUST come out of the labyrinth, Homura's powers were evolving at that point and its all plausible this is the reason why she could be seen still at this point. Afterwards she could be seen for the current point we get a cliff hanger on cus of Homura ripping her in two. Also, while inside of Homura, and this can be taken to mean dif interprtations which is why i saved it for last, Sayaka said she came back becus of Madoka but also to see her friend and crush again + to set things right with Kyoka and see her again. Nagisa however said she only came bac for cheese. (LOVED that line and the next line haha) This tells us they A) Can't just interact with the world which effectively means they're in a similarish state as Madoka, only people can remem them still. B) There's no cheese wherever they are and likely no food or water. (Essentially they're likely dead, esp back on their lines of coming back, though they could've just meant coming back to Earth) and C) we also know the world they leave behind when Madoka comes to get em don't know anything about why, where or how they disappear, other than they just disappear when their soul gems become too clouded, even Kyubey doesn't know why. This tells us a LOT and while i forget where the "They're inside Madoka sleeping" came from, its likely true, esp based on the facts we already know in the anime itself. And b4 anyone points to the heaven like place that appears when she comes for Homura, that very well could a just been symbolic imagery as we never see that during any point besides that 1 point when she saved the other girls and one more thing to note, iirc, Witch's familiars were seen there too. Then we have Sayaka controlling her Witch as if it were a part of her. The fact is we dunno whats what exactly and can only take our best guess on soem thigns. What we DO KNOW though is even though Sayaka is controlling her Witch, it can't actually BE a Witch, as Madoka's wish was to erase them b4 they exist in all time periods. So perhaps the reason Magical Girls go to sleep inside her if thats actually the case that is, is so they don't fully transform into Witches. This essentially erases them from existing thus keeping her wish in tact. When they are awoken to go on a mission for her, its most likely temp, and Madoka while they're isndie of her, is still alone and if no one were to do soemthing, that'd be the case for all eternity. Madoka may be ok with that, but that does NOT mean thats good for anyone, even if they themself made the choice. (Like smoking for example) Homura knows this and is one of many reasons for why she does what she does. That at least is something we all know to be true. Now, does that make what Homura does right? No. But what alternative did she have besides let Madoka exist alone for all eternity? And from Madoka's perspective and Sayaka's perspective, thats hard to answer really, we know they seemingly aren't happy with it (Sayaka for sure) at least at first and if they remember whose to say they won't be ok with it? (They getting to have a life again after all, people can change their minds) But even if they say no, that doesn't mean their path is rght either (Again, see the example of smoking) so perhaps movie 4 will be about them fighting over this and them trying to find a solution together to the prob where they can all be happy. Then again that'd be TOO ordinary a tale for the Madoka series so am expecting nothing of whatever we expect. lol and if it is in there I expect some plot twist(s) lol Anyway, all am saying is, from the perspective of everyone, its not good no matter which side u'r on. Now, IF Madoka IS able to not temp but have a normal life with the girls she takes, then yeah, her path is better but we know thats not the case cus of what Mami said and what the rest of what was said and shown. Lastly, as further proof she's not with her friends, IF she were with her friends then why, does Sayaka NOT say so to Homura in Rebellion? She had plenty of time to argue with Homura at that point, heck, even Madoka had a TINY bit of time, other chars ALSO had a tiny bit of tiem b4 Madoka was split in two (Granted not likely to have said that) but ultimately Sayaka who still remembered everythign b4 Homura concentrated her powers on her had time to say u could've been happy with us, we get to laugh, play, whatever with Madoka and still can if u undo this" but she didn't and THAT right there tells us, Madoka doesn't get to see her friends, she doesn't get to have a life outside of saving magical girls for all eternity till the universe ceases to exist. She's alone. I cannot blame Homura for wanting to make her friend happy, even if what she does isn't right. In our and Madoka's reality there isn't simple black and white, life is not that simple... |
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Juno016
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Kyubey is a hive mind. Even if the Kyubey inside the soul gem were to lose his memories, the Kyubeys constantly observing the experiment have not lost their memories and would have remembered Madoka. As for Homura's shield mechanism, I actually just found a page from my Production Note book that explains the mechanism in some crazy detail, including not just pictures of the hourglass with the sand visible, but how she tilts it to stop time (she tilts it 90 degrees, causing the hourglass to lay on its side and the sand flow to stop--then there is a timer you can hear that counts down and auto-flips back to restart the flow of sand again) and how the middle gears work, which you can see when it opens up. The inner gear design is asymmetrical, so it looks different every timeline because she resets the shield by turning it 180 degrees. The timer is set to the moment she made her wish in her original timeline and goes back approximately 1.5 months (starting on the 16th of one month, ending on the 30th of the next, according to the on-screen calendars--I just checked) every time. Nest stuff, actually. Also, when she said, "there's no time left", time wasn't stopped. She was referring to the sand almost running out completely. Lastly, I consider explicit materials used in the production of the anime itself (animators refer to character settei and design sketches, scripts are used as the framework the anime is built upon, etc.) to be "canon". However, "canon" is largely a personal matter. I'm less concerned about using "canon" to support my beliefs than I am about using the text itself to do so, but when the author says something about the creation design that is explicitely supported by the text, I tend to lean into it. As for spin-offs like Wraith arc, I view them all as interpretation depending on who is involved. I loved the PSP game and the Vita game and they presented some really cool new details in their stories that we know are true (ie. Mami's only power is ribbons and her guns and bullets are densely molded from those ribbons, Sayaka's fire extinguisher attack from Rebellion originated from the PSP game, etc.), but HomuLilly's design changed from the PSP game to Rebellion and clearly some PS Vita events are impossible based on the original anime. The Different Story manga is REALLY good and dives much deeper into Mami and Kyouko's characters, but the events are still not acknowledged in the anime, so it is currently only "canon" to itself. |
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Villain-chan
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That DOES sound neat :) A fair point, something I'd never considered b4, but also a fair point is there are scrapped ideas during those processes which one could, also say are canon in another timeline in this case or just however they wanna confirm its canon or not. Like u said whats canon is personal to everyone, it's tricky and i loved the Another Story manga, good stuff. With that said, even if u took out Wraith arc which i still consider to be canon as its the only thing that fills in the clear as day time gap between the series/movies, just going off of the TV series and movie 3, what i said about Homura as a character still stands, otherwise her saying to Kyubey "it's love" would make NO sense, nor would her actions. Plus if u really examine the scenes and words + her actions and life for what, 27 years of time looping? It just makes sense that what Homura did was why I said she did it. The fan base sees all this too, but ofc, some cannot see it and offer their own take. Regardless of whose right and not about Homura, hopefully movie 4 or a future canon work will finally, once and for all, shed light on who Homura truely is as a character. But I would not doubt it if we get that answer and fans still say nah, I'm right, everyone else is wrong. Oh the irony if that ends up being me xD Anyway, didn't mean for that to go on as long as it did, just wanted to offer insight into her character and the series itself for why she did what she did. Thanks for sharing ur perspectives and series lore outside of the anime/manga, didn't know that stuff so was cool learning it :) P.s. I knew about the PSP game, but didn't know we got it in the US? Also never heard of a Vita game for the series. So uh, yeah, much as I would've loved to play em, never got too. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5847 Location: Virginia, United States |
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The end of the Madoka Magica TV series showed Madoka interacting with her dead friends.
In the Rebellion movie, Madoka and friends find the prison Kyubey is incubating Homura and enter to rescue her. In the final arc of Rebellion you see everyone come down the rainbow bridge. Clearly Madoka is not alone. Another way to look at Homura's actions, is that she didn't just grant them new lives, she made them forget their old lives, regressing them to Homura's golden age. Figuratively, killing their personhood (who they are), what they have done. The ending of Rebellion, is not a happy ending, it is not a neutral ending, it is a hellish ending. No one would want this to happen to them. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2394 |
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Kyubey is a hive mind in the sense that each Kyubey is an individual, but they all *work together* as a single entity. Kyubey in episode 8 talks about how much of a waste it is to lose a body, meaning they essentially consider each other part of themselves. Besides, before the experiment, Homura either didn't have memory-rewriting powers or (if we are referring to the Wraith arc) she could only erase memories for a few minutes at a time. Her memory rewriting powers only worked to the extent they did within her barrier. All the Kyubey outside the barrier wouldn't be affected for these two reasons. As for the PSP/PSVita games, they were only released in Japan, but I own them both and played them both completely through every route, taking notes along the way. I speak Japanese and Madoka Magica is my favorite series. |
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Villain-chan
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Madoka Magica is my fav series too. I don't speak Japanese but i do know a few words but not enough to hold a conversation. When watching anime subbed am much more able to understand some lines than when am trying to recall Japanese words and their meaning, but that's thanks to my years of watching anime subbed. Japanese is a beautiful language and I love Japanese songs for that reason. :) |
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Juno016
Posts: 2394 |
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I know what you meant in your last post, but my response still stands. You'll have to check out Wraith arc again yourself if you're a bit confused, but right up to when Homura is contained, her actual bow and arrow powers are strong, but her memory-rewriting powers only stand for a few minutes before the person remembers again. She is able to rewrite memories within her soul gem because it is in within a labyrinth of her making (which was the original explanation in the movie and is part of why she expands her barrier across the universe). And if she wanted to protect Madoka by erasing Kyubey's memories before she knew about their experiment, then she wouldn't have told him everything about Madoka in the first place, so that wouldn't make sense either. |
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Everlasting Coconut
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I don't think it's as simple as saying that Madoka is just in heaven doing stuff with her friends and having fun, since her wish is always portrayed as a huge sacrifice that entails forsaking those things. Whenever we see Madoka in her goddess form interacting with others, it's always under special and very specific circumstances (while the universe is being rewritten, thanks to Homura's time-space magic, or due to Kyubey's experiments). As it was said in the ending of the show, she's just a concept who cannot ever interact with anyone. And as it was said (by Madoka herself) in the trailer for the fourth movie, simple things like friends, family, and even "having your name called by someone" are things that Madoka doesn't have in Heaven. When she said to Homura that they'd always be together at the end of Rebellion, I always interpreted it in a more metaphorical/abstract sense. Homura would've become part of the Law of Cycles and that's it.
Homura wants Madoka to live a normal, happy life. That wish in and of itself is well-intentioned. With that said, I wasn't condoning Homura's actions, since I don't believe the end justifies the means. Homura is in the wrong.
That's not a fair comparison, since what Homura did was not just erase memories, but give back memories that were lost in the first place. It's not so black and white. So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't be sanguine about it, but I also wouldn't be outright mad. I'd feel conflicted. And again, I'm not defending the Homura. As I said in my previous post, I agree that the ending is nightmarish. I feel bad for Sayaka and everyone else. It's just that I don't agree with this idea that the ending of Rebellion can be explained by saying that Homura's crazy and evil. That's just reductive. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5847 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I’d say it is a fair comparison. People are the sum of their memories, experiences, and skills. You are not the same person you were 20 years ago. Brainwashing those memories away kills the person who had existed. Homura didn’t want the Madoka of the present, she wanted the Madoka of the past. I never heard of Madoka losing any memories upon her ascension to the divine. Erasing memories and injecting new memories makes Homura sound like a KGB agent in a sci-fi Cold War drama.
Perhaps it is just me, but I find it unbelievable that you wouldn’t be mad and angry if you found out your friend was secretly erasing your memories, so they could have you all to themselves. For such a betrayal and attack on my personhood, I would be angry beyond reason.
We’ll have to disagree on this point. The “Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions” thing is simply outclassed here by Homura. Erasing people’s memories is never well intentioned. Crazy evil is the best descriptor for Homura’s actions, and it is clearly the twist the creator/producer was going for. This was never being done for Madoka’s sake, but rather for Homura’s sake. Brainwashing and/or erasing memories without permission (probably, in some cases, with permission too) is evil. Especially in the way it was done in Rebellion. Sayaka didn’t go down without a fight.
I am not sure just how true that is, considering what is shown, I believe there is much to debate about. Maybe it is more true for the normal living people, but not so true for magical girls. Even Madoka’s little brother seemed to have some memory of her. So even with the living, she does have the ability to interact, just not like a normal living person. And if she can interact with her friends during the Rebellion movie, then it is quite possible she interacts with them as normal friends would, since they and Homura are already not really alive anymore. Homura was on her way to turning already. I saw nothing in Rebellion saying they couldn’t. |
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ThePatmann
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Sorry in advance for the necropost, I just now made an account and wanted to weigh in.
Homura is inherently a flawed, traumatized character. Her decision to brainwash them was what she saw as a necessary evil in her revision of the world. A world in which both the Law of Cycles exists as well as a Madoka who could live a happy life with her friends. Crazy evil is just a reductive stance to take on Homura's actions, which ultimately center around the question of whether it is moral to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Homura is undoing Madoka's sacrifice at the end of Rebellion, which undoubtedly has negative moral implications, however, she's doing so to undo what she sees as a great injustice. That Madoka was ever made to sacrifice herself to save the world. It spits in the face of Utilitarianism, and honestly, It's one of the things that held personal weight to me moving to a more complex moral system than pure altruistic utilitarianism. There's more nuance here than only the ethics of brainwashing.
The text of the series doesn't lead us to believe that Madoka gets to interact with people. The trace memories of her seem to be the last remnants of her and there's not much proof she interacts with anyone other than the turning Magical Girls, and even that is indeterminant on the extent of how much she gets to do. I always interpreted Madoka's duty as the Law of Cycles to be mercy killing every Magical Girl before they could become a witch, grim as that is. Her ability to socialize is murky at best, and at it's worst it's a terribly hellish fate to be stuck with, regardless of if Madoka consented to it. [/b] |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5847 Location: Virginia, United States |
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People have forgotten what evil is. Evil is when people say their 'will' is more important than anyone else's and they have the right to impose their will on others and take what they want.
People always have reasons for doing things, but those reasons don't matter. If you do evil things, you are evil. I am sure serial killers and other well known evil people all have interesting back stories in real life too. But they are still clearly evil. I believe the producers broke Homura as a character. I do not believe that the Homura depicted in the TV series and in the first two arcs of Rebellion would do the things she did in the final arc of Rebellion. But in the interests of discussion, we go with what we have. Homura betrayed her friend and the other magical girls. Homura (removed/erased/hidden/blocked - you pick) their memories post Madoka the Magical Girl. Homura bound them to a clearly broken world. Tell me truthfully, would you want your mind edited to remove your experiences and memories by another person against your will. Which is cleary what Homura did to Sayaka, and the others to varying degrees. The point is that we as people are the sum of our memories and experiences, to remove them is to kill you as the person you are. Homura wanted the Madoka of the past, not the Madoka of the present. So she eliminated the Madoka of the present to have the Madoka of the past. This is clearly a terrible and evil act |
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nobahn
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I have a rather simple reaction to Rebellion. I just pretend it doesn't exist. |
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